UPDATE: In the combox, Larry L. explains the mysteries of military rules that civilians tend to miss. This story explains it well:
Reference on uniforms and the idea of changing clothes…. True story and a friendlier than most of my military stories…. During lunch I run down to the bank to deposit some cash(in uniform). I get stopped walking into the bank.(navy federal) and get told I am not allowed to go into a civilian location in working uniform. I go back to my ship and no kidding…. you are not allowed to wear your working uniform anywhere but to military locations. If stopping to get a soda at the local 7-11 you can’t do it in “working” uniform. “Dress” uniform perfectly allowed though.
Thanks, Larry L. Makes perfect sense. In that special military way.
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Original Post:
Since I was so pointed in my criticism of Time Magazine’s pornesque breastfeeding cover photo, I wanted to observe that this photo that showed up in Yahoo news this morning is just a plain old breastfeeding photo, nothing to get freaked out about. The mom with twins is not so discreet, which I don’t care for. I wouldn’t stick it on a billboard, any more than I’d post a mom doing wholesome mom things but wearing a dress or swim suit with similar amounts of cleavage showing.
(I would put that picture in a brochure for new mothers, which would be an appropriate place for a little technical instruction. I’ve noticed in the past that sometimes formula companies will issue “breastfeeding guides” in which the explanations and images of breastfeeding positions are so uncomfortable and impractical that if you tried them, you’d be sure to give up and switch to formula.)
–> Even for nursing in public, I am far more inclined to give a pass to the breastfeeding mom-o-twins than any of the other 10,000 utterly avoidable situations where women not feeding children decide to create a temptation for hungry babies everywhere. On that day when every other woman in the US manages to cover it up? We can have a talk with the moms of multiples about whether there’s a more discrete way to do the one thing those breasts were actually made to do.
Bad journalism in an effort to stir up controversy:
“Also forbidden while in uniform: eating, drinking, . . .”
Er . . . no. I imagine they meant to say something that was true. But they didn’t. Maybe, if I read the whole sentence and guess about how it’s punctuated, what they mean is “eating while walking” and “drinking while walking”. Maybe?
Anyhow, I’m not military and so my thoughts on what soldiers do in uniform counts for very little, except that sheesh, yes, mothers need to feed their children. If you’re going to have soldiers who are mothers of babies and toddlers, this is all part of the package.
Breastfeeding your baby is not some optional thing that ought to be saved for leisure hours. It’s the normal way of feeding a baby. It’s wonderful that safe, healthy alternatives exist for moms who can’t do it the usual way. But it would be mighty bizarre to insist that every mother do the artificial work-around to solve a non-existent problem, just because someone’s got it in their head that normal isn’t normal.
Not being a woman but knowing military policies and attitudes….. the baby is not at the workplace period. So breastfeeding in uniform should’t even be an option. When you have a child in the military your spouse/boyfriend/girlfriend has to sign a document that says they will be responsible for the child while you are working. If you are a single parent you have to get someone else to be the guardian of your child. And if you can’t get someone to sign up for that responsibility you are released from the military due to “hardship”. It isn’t an “other than honorable” but it is not a “honorable” discharge. There are an untold number of policies for doing things in uniform half are completely ignored, the other half are kind of enforced, and about 1% of them get you booted from the military almost instantly.
Reference on uniforms and the idea of changing clothes…. True story and a friendlier than most of my military stories…. During lunch I run down to the bank to deposit some cash(in uniform). I get stopped walking into the bank.(navy federal) and get told I am not allowed to go into a civilian location in working uniform. I go back to my ship and no kidding…. you are not allowed to wear your working uniform anywhere but to military locations. If stopping to get a soda at the local 7-11 you can’t do it in “working” uniform. “Dress” uniform perfectly allowed though.
So the outcry at this being wrong well is accurate. And if you are gonna question why military leadership has such stupid rules then well I have centuries of examples of how dumb they really are when they aren’t trying to kill the other guy.
Larry, that makes perfect sense. If soldiers really are out of uniform for all their civilian activities, then yes. That’s not what I see around town, but I might be missing a nuance there. I think civilians like myself really do not detect the difference between “dress” and “working” uniforms, so there’s some confusion. If there’d be a similar outcry about a pic of the same soldier buying a coke at 7-11, then I’m with you.
And I wouldn’t expect a civilian employer to have to allow breastfeeding in the office either, any more than you have to allow personal phone calls, or use the company car for personal stuff. I like the idea of employers making it easier on breastfeeding moms by saying sure, you can have someone bring your baby during your breaks and so forth. But I appreciate that not every workplace is suitable for babies.
To double emphasize why this is confusing: What I see in the photo is someone on break, maybe before or after work, who is just doing normal life stuff that’s not scandalous in anyway. And I see soldiers around town in some uniform or another, doing normal life activities that are not scandalous. So to the non-military mind, this is like, um, what? Why this and not that? But you’ve explained it, mystery solved. I appreciate you weighing in, I was hoping you or Sandra would.
A more basic concept is this is breaking the spirit of the law and doing it in an extremely public way. It wouldn’t surprise me if the command actually punishes them in this. The uniform rules are broken normally and broken all the time…. but not in extreme public view ie the media. For example if you take a picture with at a political rally in uniform your name and rank better not show up on the news or you are done. Regardless of whose rally…. anytime you use your uniform for public displays it is pretty much the hammer is coming down on ya real soon. Heck a marine in California is getting booted for saying on Facebook he doesn’t like obama
Isn’t part of the problem with that marine that his boss told him to stop writing those posts and he didn’t?
That is why it has escalated. He broke the rule initially. Which that alone justifies him being discharged. They tried to work with him and not big time bust him but he fought it and appears to be losing. He did not break the letter of the law he broke the spirit of the law
Gotcha. The thing is, to a civilian eye, what I see is the equivalent of being caught on camera giving your kid a sandwich. (Lady on the right, anyhow, feeding the singleton. Lady on the left feeding twins is more like caught on camera covered in PB&J from making the kid a sandwich.)
I was thinking though of an analogy. If I saw a priest out doing any normal activity in just his black shirt with white collar, no big deal. But if he were in his vestments for mass (the big shiny colorful stuff that says “Mass! Sacraments! Ceremony!), yeah, there’d be an outcry if he were on camera doing some clearly non-sacramental thing, and promoting it as A-OK with no qualifications.
Probably someone who didn’t feel the significance of the priest example would be like, oh, well whatever, priests are human, they have to do normal stuff. But someone attuned to the right time and place for this or that clothing, would feel very strongly. So I get it. I really appreciate your taking the time to explain.
I am without comment or observation.
Larry hit the big parts.
I will refrain from making negative comments about those women being Air Force.
I agree that the women on the left is rather “revealing” and I do have a problem with that of exposure. To me it really looks more like she is showing off some impressive cleavage not that she is breastfeeding twins. The lady on the right is fine and as a former NCO I would not call her out on breaking the spirit of the rule. I see far worse examples
I will however add that the military gives some leave time for women who have kids and stay on active duty. But it is not a lot of time from the mother’s perspective and I will say from personal experience they do not make it easy…
I had to look it up (ref cite is linked below) but it is __42 days__ of post-partum convalescent leave. Obviously not enough to continue breastfeeding unless you pump at work. Then 45 days of a post-partum profile (restricts what you can and cannot be made to do physically) and within 180 days you are _expected_ to be back to military physical fitness standard and weign-in. C-section ladies usually got more time based on the doctor’s recommendation.
http://mcdonald.narmc.amedd.army.mil/mtfdocs/clinics/PublicHealth/AR4050129May07.pdf
Christian, hehe.
Sandra,
We’re agreed on the too much exposure, though I will give a mom of twins the benefit of the doubt if she says it really is the only position she can manage. I’ve known moms for whom the ergonomics really do not make it possible to breastfeed discretely, even though many of us can with no difficulty. I don’t think it’s appropriate for mass communications, though it’s fine for inside a pamphlet for moms.
Thanks for the info on what the military does for moms — good to know. I think I’ll probably stay out of a giant debate because, well, only so many cans of worms to open in one day. I can see several different extreme-but-valid positions, and it looks to me like the military has hit a poor middle ground in trying to balance various concerns. Though with the obvious qualification that since the military is in the business of collecting volunteers who are willing to be sent to their death, um, maybe it’s not an organizational culture that lends itself to empathy and little kindnesses, hmmn.
Jen.
PS: Thank you for not making Air Force jokes. I try so, so hard for this blog to be a place where people can participate even if they disagree, and, you know, we can’t get a reputation for Everybody but Air Force*. No matter how tempting. We must resist.
*Actually I don’t know any Air Force jokes.**
**But I used to. And I would laugh again if someone told one.***
***So we’ll hit on our hands and avoid temptation.
Military is tough yes… but civilian real life isn’t any more forgiving on a Mom who chooses to have a career either…especially in the still male dominated sectors. (I would say I definately work in one with the current job) But I at least know what I am guaranteed and what I have for maternal/post partum rights, even if they seem very minimal. There are quite a few programs also that have the intention to help and support families but it can depend on a specific unit and that organizational lead that will make or break its effectiveness.
Re: Air Force jokes – Here are some that are good to know: http://usmilitary.about.com/library/miljokes/blafwriteups.htm
P.S. E&E talked about how cool it was your son was playing Minecraft so Larry had to find it… he is now playing it a lot.
I think it is hilarious that a Fitz has gotten Larry to play a new game, after the poor guy’s 10,000 attempts to work it the other direction.
The boy’ll be thrilled though, if the two of them can team up some time.
Unfortunately I play it on the Xbox. Basically I build crazy things and then have the boys play running around in a giant digital playground with floating volcanoes and waterfalls from nowhere. Next project is a roller coaster…. now only to figure out how to do it
Ah, nuts. BTW, it was a lovely moment seeing the two boys bonding over Minecraft the other day. :-).